Official Luthiers Forum!

[QUOTE=Hesh1956] What Alain said was on my mind too Jeff. We just had a thread discussing this topic this past weekend. Those OLFers who are not sponsors are to wait for the creation of an auction site. This is as it is out of respect for our sponsor members as I understand it. And it makes perfect snese to me personally as well.

Jeff I know that you PMed me to answer my questions as to if it was legal for me to buy BRW from you and I appreciate that you replied.

However..... my read of your reply is that no one will care about small quantities of BRW regardless of the possibilities that this is not in keeping with the CITES treaty. You also mention that you believe that in reality BRW is not endangered any more and that Brazil was pushed into the CITES treaty.

With this said I have serious reservations as to why I would wish to do business with you and possibly risk breaking any laws. And again, out of respect for our sponsor members, redirecting us to your site to sell us wood is not in keeping with my understanding of our very few OLF rules.

My intent is not to start any problem here nor is it to insult you Jeff in any way. Thank you for your reply to me however we will not be doing any business together.[/QUOTE]

I'll second that one Hesh. Very well said. I agree wholeheartedly.

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I'd like to be able to prove, just for once, that money wouldn't make me happy...

I can appreciate your opinions, and I prefer not debate with you on the issue. You are entitled to your own opinion and decision who you will or will not do business with. As for redirecting you to my site to sell you wood....I posted that because I had many emails asking why my site was down. Most were from OLF members because I did sponsor the OLF at one point. I chose to make it known that the problem had been corrected, our site was working again and do it in one post rather than continue to answer each individual email.
Sorry if I infringed on your or anyone elses sponsorship.

Jeff, can you please let me know about shipping BZRW to the USA?

Thanks

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Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

Hello,

I bought wood from Jeff / Brazil tonewoods in the past, and I was completely happy. He was a sponsor of this site before many here were members, so he has history here, and he is also a member. I may have been one of the ones who asked him about his website. I don't think he meant any harm, only to let those interested know that his site was back up.

If you have reservations about doing business with him, why broadcast them? Just PM him in the same manner as he did you. I don't like to see a good guy get a bad turn when it is not deserved.

Jeff

Jeff..thanks for your response on that. My intentions were truly not meant to be a cheap shot at redirecting anyone to buy wood from me. And if it's any consolation to those who took it that way, I haven't sold any wood as a result of this post. After seeing the comments, I have received a couple of inquiries that I redirected to the (paying) wood sponsors.

I support Jeff also. I've bought wood from him and had great service.

I back up Jeff on his last comment! After I asked about BRW he PM'ed me and directed me to Bob(the ZOOT MAN) for some BRW he has coming in soon! If any of you disagree with him, I would PM him rather than post it.

just my input for all its worth!

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Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

Jeff, i would have a question, if you don't mind, why wouldn't you be back as a sponsor? Since you do sell wood and your website is back up, why not join the sponsors gang?

[QUOTE=Serge Poirier] Jeff, i would have a question, if you don't mind, why wouldn't you be back as a sponsor? Since you do sell wood and your website is back up, why not join the sponsors gang?[/QUOTE]

Serge...I guess the main reason is it's hard for me to be competitive with the other sponsors here because shipping is so much more from Brazil. Even if I have a great price on a set, when you figure in the shipping costs...it's then not such a great deal. Most will choose to go to one of the US sponsors and I can understand that when the shipping is in the $10-$12 range there. However, if I sell to countries other than the US, I can be competitive because the shipping would be about the same for a US sponsor. And since most of the members of the OLF are from the US or Canada, I just didn't see a return for the investment. Not that I mind that so much but, we are a small and new company so, in order to survive I have to choose my marketing expenses wisely. I think any of the other sponsors would agree that this is not an easy job and none of us are getting rich at it. Woodworking is just a passion we have and we can tolerate the hard work if we enjoy it. But, we still have to bring home the bacon just as anyone else.

Thanks Jeff, i appreciate your taking the time for these explanations.


Serge

For anyone looking for some top-notch Pau Ferro, Jeff's got the goods. Got 4 sets from him recently, and they're very, very nice. Pleasure doing business with, as well.

[QUOTE=Mattia Valente] For anyone looking for some top-notch Pau Ferro, Jeff's got the goods. Got 4 sets from him recently, and they're very, very nice. Pleasure doing business with, as well.[/QUOTE]

I second this. Having lived in Brazil for many years I know good Pau ferro when I see it and Jeff has it.

The BRW issue is only going to get more confusing as the current supply of legal pre-CITES ban wood is used up.
It's difficult to know just how much BRW there is in Brazil, since the government seems rather quiet about it. There are strong political overtones to the story as to why the wood was placed on the list to begin with. Getting permits to export the legal stuff from Brazil is pretty much going to cost folks like Jeff a lot of money out of their pockets to push the permits through the political machine.

If the wood is so endangered, why isn't Brazil doing anything to plant BRW seedlings in an effort to preserve the species and gain a valuable future resource?
Hmmm....there must be a reason, don't you think? A lot of things don't add up. I suspect, but can't prove, that Jeff's assertions that the wood isn't so endangered are probably correct, but it's near impossible to prove.
Most governments will subsidize or encourage private enterprise for reforestation of endangered species, but as far as anyone knows, Brazil has utterly failed to address the problem. If there actually is one.
The future of this fine product is in serious doubt. We will need to look at alternative woods even more seriously in the future unless they step up to the plate (pardon the American colloquialism) and address the issue.
It's a cryin' shame that 30 years after such a proclamation of "Endangered" has been issued, that there has been no change to the status for the better, and that we find ourselves arguing about the problem.
Don Williams38813.476400463

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

[QUOTE=Brazilwood] [QUOTE=Serge Poirier] Jeff, i would have a question, if you don't mind, why wouldn't you be back as a sponsor? Since you do sell wood and your website is back up, why not join the sponsors gang?[/QUOTE]

Serge...I guess the main reason is it's hard for me to be competitive with the other sponsors here because shipping is so much more from Brazil. Even if I have a great price on a set, when you figure in the shipping costs...it's then not such a great deal. Most will choose to go to one of the US sponsors and I can understand that when the shipping is in the $10-$12 range there. However, if I sell to countries other than the US, I can be competitive because the shipping would be about the same for a US sponsor. And since most of the members of the OLF are from the US or Canada, I just didn't see a return for the investment. Not that I mind that so much but, we are a small and new company so, in order to survive I have to choose my marketing expenses wisely. I think any of the other sponsors would agree that this is not an easy job and none of us are getting rich at it. Woodworking is just a passion we have and we can tolerate the hard work if we enjoy it. But, we still have to bring home the bacon just as anyone else.[/QUOTE]

Ive always wondered that, why is it that person from brazil cannot offer seriously lower prices on BRW, as compared to American counterparts. I would imagine there are stocks of preban there, and considering the currency difference, but the stories I hear are of people finding large stocks here in North America.
For instance - I recently bought a Morgan OM {well I traded for it actually }- so I was in touch with David Iannone{-2sp?}, I was asking him about the possibilty of having a Concert cutaway in BRW built in his stock of 100yr old rosewood - sadly the 100yr and 200yr old stock was gone, luckily he found a large quantity of preban Brazilian Rosewood -> In NOVA SCOTIA?!?!?!?!?
I hear these stories all the time - some luthier lucks into 500cubic meters of BRW from an old barn in -[ place State or Province name here.]
Is it as has been mentioned - that the export and shipping charges are so prohibitive from Brazil?
And this is why Brazilians cant be more competitive with N.A. vendors?
Im seriously in the dark about this - Im not being a weisenheimer.
Cheers
Charlie

I am seriously considered starting a book on this very subject. I am putting together some photos, ideas and doing more research now in my spare time (what little I have). However, I have no desire to stick my neck out too far while living here in Brazil. And just to set the record straight for some of you...I am operating a legal business here. I'm not out Illegally harvesting BRW. i buy from a source that has been in business here for more than 50 years. They were actually one of the largest exporters of BRW for over 30 years. Exporting as much as 1000 cubic meters per month. Most going to furniture manufacturers. This is something for the future when I'm' sure the issue will be even more controversial. I have a blog section I am putting together on my website that I would like very much to continue this topic. Where there will be no monitoring or controlled editing of posts other than any untasteful language that might occur. There are lots of things I'd like to say and bring out that I can't do here because it really boils down to politics...and we all know that this forum doesn't allow issues with political overtones. "Political" and "Religious" topics are not permitted here. I understand and respect Lance and Brocks decision not to allow it but, in the guitar industry...Brazilian Rosewood is a "Hot" and "Controversial" topic. However, it does really relate to all of us in the industry. So, I think there needs to be a place for subjects like this.
Another thing most don't consider: CITES was created (In the 70's) for other things as well. A lot of it had to do with "Wildlife" (Animals). And initially this was the main goal as there were so many "African Safaris" where people would pay just to go and shoot "Murder" a defenseless Elephant, Rhino or other exotic animal just to hang his head on the wall or put the beautiful fur on the floor. Others were trapping exotic birds, monkeys and such in "Amazonia" to sell to someone to put in a cage as a pet. A real travesty in my opinion. It's almost always the case where a handful of greedy and without conscience people who screw things up for everyone. As things evolved..plant life, trees and plant seeds were added as they were deemed to become (or on the verge of) becoming extint if the country of origin didn't intercede. There are gray areas in the listings if one studies them close enough. There are a few loopholes (for lack of a better term) in the wording that create these gray areas. Thus the three levels of seriousness. Appendix I, II and III. Depending on the knowledge and facts presented to the committee that votes, it is decided whether to include the species or not and at what level it is threatened. From what I understand most of this voting and decision making was (and still is) highly influenced by an American Panel. With a lot of controversial data..Dalbergia Nigra was added to the CITES II Appendix in 1992. Well after the creation of CITES. Every 2 or 3 years there is another CITES meeting (usually in the US) where concerns and evidence are presented to upgrade exhisting species or add new ones to the list that an organization or politically backed company (with it's own agenda) have the opportunity to try and include a new species. Most recently Mahogany (Sweetinia Macrophylia) was added. Due to the massive (greedy) harvesting by some major logging companies that were ravaging "Amazonia" again. Believe me...the Brazilian Government is on top of it. Don I know you feel Brazil isn't doing enough about replenishing but, there are some things going on here that show me they truly do care and they are doing a lot to stop it. As of last year IBAMA REVOKED 70% of the foreign country "Loggin Permits" that had been operating here. And there are reforestation projects going on and others in the works. Brazil contains one of the largest wood resource deposits left in the world. It is a great economic sustaining product for them. And they have come to realize it.
Hate to be so long winded about this but, I'm very passionate about it. I really believe in protecting the environment and wouldn't want to be a contributing factor to destroying such a great resource as BRW. It is truly one of Gods most beautiful gifts to the woodworking industry. And if I thought for a minute that it was truly that endangered..I'd have not part of it. But, I am here and can see the reality of it. Which is something most don't have a chance to do. One of my future dreams and plans is to do everything I can possibly do to insure it's around for many more generations.
WHHEEEEEEYYYYYYY !! That was long huh ?

Thank you for the "brief" explanation . Honestly I bet you could have gone on for pages,.........
There are things I would like to say about Western Governmental involvement in the affairs of other countries and regions - but this is obviously NOT the place, and as such I will not enter into that here.
But I will keep up with your site to see what there is to be said about the issue.
Cheers
Charlie

As Charlie said, thanks Jeff, i know it's a delicate situation for you and i appreciate what you just did, i too will keep track of the events to unfold.

Serge

Jeff, How come the BRW your getting does not look to be near the quality
that used to be had just year ago by Allied/Maro? Is the stock of the
pre-ban stuff just dried up so much that the primo stuff is gone?

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John Mayes
http://www.mayesluthier.com

Hesh...just for the record. I'm not green..I am also Red, White and Blue. All American which is not something I'm so happy to admit in the last few years. Just happen to choose to live in Brazil until 2008 .Seems like most intelligent people from all other countries can see the unjust "Long arm of US political meddlesome tactics" accept for a small majority of Americans. As for me I never knew we were ever engaged. So, how can we disengage.

As for your pre-ban BRW. In another post: "What is next for you". Part of your response was:
After this one I have some BRW and ziricote that is calling my name as well.....
Since you are a rather newbie to guitar building..and a shade tree one I gather from your other posts. You surely bought that set of BRW in the last few years. Do you have documents or did you request proof from the supplier that it is truly "Pre-Ban" ?? I am guessing NOT. You like many other "Holier than Thou" buyers...have a double standard. As long as it's already in the US and your seller tells you it's "Pre-Ban", you are justified in buying it and all is O.K. Well, I'll tell you...I do business with many in the industry and I would venture to say that 90% of what is being sold now as "Pre-Ban" in reality isn't. So, while you're building that fine guitar with your "Pre-Ban" BRW..think about it. It's guys like you who drive the market.Brazilwood38813.6069675926

This is my fault for making a comment that opened the door to this debate...


Hey guys, put on your boxing gloves and take it outside...let's dispense with the fighting words...please. There's been too much inuendo in this thread about political persuasion and such, and I'm as guilty as anyone I guess. Let's end it, ok?

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Since you choose not to do business with me and we are officially disengaged, I see no need to fuel your obsessive need to bicker. You obviously have too much time on your hands by looking at the number of your posts in such a short time. I'll consider us disengaged.